Innovative Legal Leadership
Innovative Legal Leadership

Episode · 1 week ago

Dr. Elouise Epstein: The Changing Landscape of Legal and Procurement

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The repercussions from the beginning of COVID-19 will continue to be felt for years to come. While there have been and will continue to be many negatives from the pandemic, for some professions, it pushed their work into the forefront and emphasized how important their roles are in everyday business and legal functions. 

In this episode, we’re shifting gears away from speaking with General Counsel and legal teams to take a deep dive into procurement with Dr. Elouise Epstein, Partner at Kearney. 

We discuss: 

  • How COVID-19 has impacted procurement 
  • Why digital is an evolving factor in the business
  • Collaborating with legal teams  

Hear more stories by subscribing to Innovative Legal Leadership on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast platform.

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Welcome to innovative legal leadership, the podcast, where you'll hear from the world's most innovative general counsel and their leadership teams for their insights into the running of a fortune five hundred inhouse legal department, the challenges, the winds, the road blocks, the journey to date and, most importantly, what lies ahead. Let's get into the show. Helloi's Abstein, what an absolute pleasure it has to have you on the show. I'm really looking forward to it. Welcome, thank you. Thanks for having me, Jim. I am so excited to be here today. Oh are we're going to have lots of fun out we alloise. We know it already, so let me launch try it in to set the scene a little bit, because you're a bit different from the guests like particular, I usually have on the show. It's usually directed at general counsel and those in legal leadership position, but you're not a general council you're a proculment expert. You recently wrote trade wars, pandemics and chaos, how digital proculment enables business success in a disordered world, and that's what I think. That's your most recent book and it's a pandemic book, as in a COVID pandemic book. That's when you wrote it. Tell us a little bit about that. Help US set the scene for the allois Epstein point of view on the world of procurement. So I am a procurement champion. I love procure men and I know many of your audience is probably cringing right now when I say the world for case, waiting to get tonight and to get into that. Don't you worry, I'm a very proud procurement person and I am a champion for the profession. I think, and I would argue vehement Lee, that we're in a transitory stage and I think I will place that real change around when the trade wars came out a few years ago, but certainly accelerated. March of two thousand and twenty just completely thrust the entire profession into a new light, into a new way of operating, and everything that we thought we knew about doing procurement changed overnight, almost literally overnight, within the course of it's say, thirty days it changed, and so many of the themes I had been talking about for the few years before two thousand and twenty all of a sudden became front and center, digital, risk, ESG and so forth. So let's do a bit of a deep a dove and each one of those. Let's stop with digital. What Child? What? What Chine? What accelerated as a result of the pandemic? So well, first of all, adoption of digital and competency, because historically procurement still a fairly new function. I would hazard to guess lawyers have been around for hundreds of years, centuries in various ways, and for Caermen, I think, in large degree, hasn't as a maybe been in the enterprise twenty five years, give or take, and so it's a new function and as a result I still think we're fairly immature and as a result, the systems and the ways of working are still fairly immature, and so we have not been operating at the same level as other functions. And but we live in a digital era. We live in the Amazon era where you and I could pull up Amazon and its sixty seconds our last by ten things we didn't know we wanted. And then we go to our corporate jobs and it's like, Oh my God, like how do I even navigate this? How do I find out how to buy what I want. So we're back in the ninties for...

...those of us who work to the sect. But but that's row it, isn't it? It certainly feels to me like there was an absolute expectation now amongst everyone that that experience you get as a consumer that should be the experience you'll getting at the enterprise level. AM UP STUDYING IT too hot? No, absolutely, I mean and and in my first book I sort of got it. That is like, how can you book tire my tickets on your mobile phone while you're walking down the street? Easier than like, I don't even begin to know how to book my travel at Carney because it's so complicated. And we're probably better than most. And and so they're. It's a dire need to be better at digital and certainly, let's say, from two thousand and twenty source you saw an acceleration of that in the in the procurement community. Yes, because we had to, and also, I would have we're leaving living and we'll get to this in a moment, but we're living in a platform era. Sales Force is a platform for sales people. Amazon web services is a platform for enterprises. Our cars are basically consist of multiple platforms, whether they're drivetrain platforms, entertainment platforms, you know, on and on and on. So this whole idea of layering platforms like that is critical in the enterprise now and I have to size Eloi's that's the very first rate, the first raison. I've reached out to you some months ago as I read your artical on that set of that platform theory, the bits of bread theory. Share that with the audience, because I found that fascinating and honestly compelling and I'd love to love for you to get to get that, get the view out there, because it's going to be great to great to discuss. Well, thank you. Yeah, I I have also historically, procurement has operated under the delusion that we need a single closed loop system, which is a cascade from the ARP logic that you have one and end system. Will Get to arps in a minute, but procurement sort of followed the same path and said, okay, we need to do supply identification and spend analytics and then sourcing and the contracting and there requisition in to payment and let's just stitch it all together and a really nice in a really nice platform and it meets this quote unquote best practice that procurement consultants have been talking about and it's all good to go. And except that's that. All was good in theory, and maybe that was good in the late these early S, but the way businesses operate today is so much more dynamic. You have acquisitions and two passengers coming, you know, on boarding, off boarding, new companies, the complexity of systems, mega you know, integrations from here to there. I mean I've clients with fifty, sixty, a hundred ARP systems. I think of one client that's just under two hundred. That's no, no end end solution can do that. Like you have to move to this much more platform approach. And that's what it means to be digital. Want one of the things that to be digital is to adopt a platform approach versus a fixed end end solution. And and so by platform, he's my understanding and it is a way which you can essentially swoop in and out. Best of breed fit for purpose solutions is that of a fade description exactly no different than your iphone or android device, where you have four things. You have a common...

...user experience because you you're going to tap and you're going to do each function. You have a common integration layer or an APP store, so I can easily add an APP, take an APP out, and that all that plumbing. It happens in the background and it's not me, as the user doing it. Then you have a data foundation, so I have data that can traverse one APP to another. And then you have this cross APP intelligence that much like if you think about what Seri does. Serie take the totality of your activity and data and then can actually apply intelligence to respond to you or take action for you, and so I can. I ask you always how common is that view of the pet platform, view swamping in and out bits of bread solutions, because my experience has been selling software into the enterprise that I time and time again, I do come up with proculment saying, well, we've got a Jeneric tool, the kind of does what you do pursue, so we should be using the generic tool. We've already got it. So it hasn't felt like to me yet the industry will broadly he's adopting your view, but I'd love to get your take on that. Well, I think it's changing and it and it has changed and I think my I first started with this theory back in two thousand and seventeen. And by the way, this is what happened at the commercial side with sales force ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. So of course, yeah, like I didn't make this up, this is this is already in progress. So without a doubt, this is changing and it is coming. It's coming slow to procurement, but in two thousand and seventeen all economy companies at procurement folks would look at me like I don't know what this witchcraft is that you're bringing me. Don't like you can see yourself to the door. I'm exaggerating, but my like this two thousand and twenty one, beginning to two thousand and twenty one, it was like all anybody wanted to talk about. And now I mean my my calendar is booked day in a day out, doing workshops, explaining this, educating people, helping designing strategies, helping them to adopt this. So it the the tie to shifted dramatically in the other direction. Okay, so before full we lose all those general counts that are listening out there, before we lose them, or let's let's kind of narrow in and and let's do a bit of a deep dive in the relationship, that sometimes testy relationship, between the officer of the General Council, the Legal Department and procurement. How would you describe from your experience, what's that relationship being like in the past? I can give a description, but I'll hear you first and then let's kick off the discussion on that topic. For their so, as a procurement person, almost every client I walk into legal as a black box. I think calling it's a black box, I think calling it a relationship. Excuse me, calling that a relationship would be overstating the almost every client says, oh, yeah, we have some influence over eight marketings. We're getting some but we got nothing, like nothing. We and it's accepted. It's totally accepted. It's accepted as in a double cept, except it it's also an exception, I've seen off to the rules the procurement of often put in place around purchasing and buying and competitive sourcing and so forth. Typically the answer from procurement is, I actually note legal has an exception to those rules. That that that's your experience to totally my experience which exceptions drive me crazy. I...

...just the fact that precarement allows it and the fact that legal asks for it and to something to be fair marketing. Sometimes the IT sometimes does this. It's not sole illegal, but across the board it's always legal and and I don't like exceptions because I think, I think that creates different problems. Okay, so let me be Mrs Oh Miss General Counsel for a moment. I'm going to say La ways, there is no way in the world I can have procurement it involved. I do not understand legal. They're only interested in in hammering down my law firms, going to destroy our relationships. Stay away. So so let me take this from the precarament point of you. First of all. So historically precrement has been very cost focused and it's like a giant sledgehammer walking around looking for nails and even if it looks kind of like a nail, they'll just, you know, smash the wall and and and just indiscriminately do exactly what you just said. I think as a profession we are changing, we are maturing. We are much more focused on third party management, driving innovation through third parties, risk through it, risk through third parties, ESG through third parties and, I would say advanced relationships or partnerships with third party. That's for Carmen's future. So I think what we bring to the table is a lot different than almost everybody listening to this as well have experienced now. That said, legal thinking that there are special flower. I refuse to accept that too, because all I hear is, Oh, we're special, and I don't buy that. It's not that we have to change everything and we're not going to viserate everybody's relationships, but you're not as special as you think you are. By the way, always I'm going to use special flower in the notes to this show because I say I love that phrase. So I what I can say to you. Certainly my recent experience, I have now started to come across procurement leaders who do have what I think is the right mindset where they recognize they might not have the particular skills or the understanding, let's say, of the legal domain, but they do understand, and this is what I'm I'm much more enthusiastic about. They do understand that what lawyers is need is something which is fit for purpose if there are going to be procurement kind of, if you like, guidelines or best practices around sourcing, around price and all the tea and relationship building that they need to have a fit for purpose tool in order to do that, and so which is consistent, I think, you know, consistent with your platform, the we so that is encouraging. I won't say it's the rule right now. It's probably more the exception that discussions I've had, but I can certainly say it and I can say it has changed over the last few years. Yeah, I know it has changed and and I mean I would say that procurement can actually bring some good things to legal that like we have good practices. If you just take the tools that we have, the insights we can generate the ways of operating, even if I just leave them at your doorstep and you just take them inside and do whatever you will like, that's better than what's happening today because in essence, what you have is shadow procurement happening within the legal black box, and you have shadow it for that matter,...

...and there'll be something you can learn from it and just like there's something you can learn from procurement. And and once you do that like that, it starts to unlock all kinds of new ways of operating and that should actually be exciting. And correspondingly, if you leave a few ideas at my doorstep, you know we as procurement might actually take them and change and do what you to subscribe jam where you have cpos that say, yeah, you know what, for legal we need fit for purpose and hey, you know, that works so well with legal. I should probably do the same thing for marketing. And I was just going to step in an asshole. What are the steps that both the procurement side and the legal side should be taking to start bridging the capital that that gap, and I think I really those kind of strategies that you've just mentioned there, where it's a bit of give from both and about recognition that both can learn from each other. And it's got to be a partnership, doesn't it? At can't. Can't be the sledgehammer. It's got to be a recognition of the bringing together of the different skills in the domain ex expertise to be able to deliver the best outcomes, and the best outcomes of always got to be not only about getting the better, best price, and probably does not necessarily just choosing on a single man of the best law firm. It's got to be long term about enhancing the relationships, thinking about the you know what I've called the supply side in legal the law firm side, and what we're doing to improve that experience and, frankly, create more opportunities to win work. That's what you want to be doing for both sides of any muck of place exactly. And if you look at procurement like this idea of three bids in a by and just whittling down the supplier to the lowest cost, like, if that's your strategy, that's automatable. So like procurement will go away if that's our only value add. But if you actually go to the other extreme where you think about a joint venture, and I believe it's Mercedes that has a partnership with Vidia, and in Vidia does ai embedded chips, and so they have a partnership where in vidia chips go into every car this manufacturer and then they get a kick. You know so much, you know profit from each car sold. Like that's like to me the pinnacle of procurement success, where you're facilitating that, you're negotiating that, you're not killing that deal because often like to get to that outcome. It takes a long, long time. It takes legal rangle, wrangling with lawyers, take wrangling with Business Development folks on how much does you know each person get? Who owns the IP, on and on a not. And actually, if you think about procurement being the facilitator of that or the orchestrator that, that's a win win. That's not cost savings, that's not yesterday's procurement. And so if I take that example and say hey, I can improve your relationships with your law firms, like who wouldn't want that? In it's it's a no brain, or isn't it? So there's it sounds like to me, louise, there is a lot of work to be done even on just the messaging that procurement delivers. If the perception out there in the market a month's legal teams from in fact any other teams, is it's all about cost, that's never going to land because implicit in that is that's...

...going to ruin my relationship with my supply law firms. I've worked too hard to build that relationship. So so the messaging piece and really a perception which you know, has been built over the last whatever it is number of years. That's got to change. How's that? How is it going to change? Yeah, I mean I think procurement has to take the first step. That's not to let the General Council folks off the hook, just means the way we approach that has to be a little bit different and and and then, sort of, like I said, like we use in procurement. We use it advanced supplier relationship management tools and insights, much like sales folks do wht crm. Like I'm I would if I showed you the kinds of things we do on relationships and building towards partnerships in a structure, highly structured way. I think that might be pretty interesting to most GC's. I would also say we do optimization. We do very complicated optimizations in terms of factoring multiple variables, whether it's it's cost or quality or delivery or, you know, time. So the idea that you would take these variables and optimize different scenarios to award business and certain regions to certain demographics like these are like. If I showed you that, not tell you have to use, if it just showed you the kinds of really cool things we do like you'd be blown away, or the insights that I can take around contracts and the ability to turn that in tie that to quality data into relationship data, on on and on and on. Like if you could see some of the things that I see, you'd be completely blown away. Or, more importantly, market places and which is very much in your own gym. We when I can show you what we do just for goods or even other services that are not legal, I think most legal folks would come away like kind of blown away with the amount of sophistication happening, at least in the procure tech world. And it's like those are the branding things, are education things. I'd leave at your doorstep, not for them down your throat, but just say hey, you might look at these some day and always look. The truth is but pursuit itself only, and it's not a pursuit plant. But we only really exist, if you like, because we have grown to fill a gap, a gap that did exist between procurement and legal department, because the kind of principles that pursuit ends up, if you like, delivering on other traditional procurement principles around price and quality and streamlining that of some automation and the data points that you would typically get when you have a marketplace to be able to understand which suppler and wine, improving those relationships. It's only because that didn't exist, if you like, in the world of generic procurement platforms that pursuit exists. So in one sense I'm certainly grateful, but we are a product where a product of the disconnect I think that existed between the two departments. But I also think you're representative of the future too, because I would argue we're going to get to more market places because Amazon really the one thing they've done they bring buyers and sellers together. If I'm going to sell, you know, the special kind of Pan, well, like, how are people going to...

...find that special kind of pan? So Amazon is just bridging suppliers and buyers, and that's what you're doing for legal and so I would argue we're going to get more market places because that's actually representative of the future. But I think it's everything around the market place that's largely untapped. Is Is, how much do I award to one firm? How you know, what do they versus another? Would there be a benefit? What happens if I actually asked the firms for their input. Maybe I'm putting things out to bed that that are just make no sense to the firm. Right and like these are collaboration things that procurement has learned through hard knocks. So wouldn't it be great if we could, you know, give that to legal so the market place theory, no surprises, is absolutely the theory that certainly pursued is built on because recognizing if you could do that for basing goods and services, why don't? Why can't you have the same day to driven market place for legal services, accounting other professional services? That to me it feels just very obvious that that is the way the world is going to go. It's it does not take a little longer to get the more complex those services are. But it has to be ultimately a digitally driven, online, day to driven market place approach, whatever that serves a agree, disagree, and has to be. And and the piece that I'm very excited about is I want to see, you know, I know there's not a plague for pursuit, but I want to see market places for every professional services function. The fact that there's not a pursuit ish type solution for management consulting just boggles my mind. or IT services like these are things that we start to see them from marketing a little bit now, but like these are things that are long overdue, and that's in always that's the exciting bit. That's the exciting bit because that's what I think we've got ahead of us in the future. I was going to ask you. This might sound like a shameless plug, and maybe it is, but I was going to ask you. You're, of course, a member of the pursuit strategic advisory board. Why you would get hundreds of requests to join boards? You've got more work. They can focus to get your writing more books. Why did you join? Now's always. Yeah, and by the way, I want to note that I'm on compensate of course. Yes, right, yes, absolutely right. Yeah, I do it because I actually am passionate about this topic and one of the like I said sort of at the beginning, the idea that there's something like an exception, like I have to understand that, like there is something in my brain that just refuses to accept that. I don't deal well with authority and and so so that's like one of the intriguing pieces, because I want to understand what is. So I want to understand what's so special about legal and I want to get under you know, underneath that you know, or get into the tent and see and and so far, because most of the advisory board is is comes from the legal profession. I'm learning a lot and and you probably can tell, I love to learn. So understanding. Like I use the term GC, but the first time I heard that on one of our calls, I had no idea. I think look it up and figure out what it was. So general counsel for those listens that day, but have the time before and and so so. So I'm very excited about just like what is this black but I got him know this black box. And then the second part is is when I realize, and early on when I heard about pursuit, when I realized that it was a market place for services, specifically for legal,...

I thought my immediate thought was, oh my God, we're going to like somebody's going to expand into other services. So I want to see what this market place, how it plays out and to be able to get a firsthand look that. That's that's why I'm doing it, because I think this is more representative of the future fantastic. And if you I mean one of the discussion, remember we had a few weeks ago, you talked about pursuit and this time generally being procuments opportunity, and I love that frise total little bit at what does that that? What does that mean to you? I mean if we can't shed the sledge hammer of cost legacy, both in the way we operate and the branding and how we present ourselves, then we are actually we have we're in trouble. So we're at this really seminal moment. We can actually lead the enterprise on corporate objective such as sustainability, on social social good, on risk innovation, some of those things I layed out earlier. This is our moment coming out of covid everybody appreciates the role procurement can play, but the but it's also an existential threat, because if we don't make that leap and we're going to stick around swinging the cost Sledge Hammer, we're going to find that all of that gets automated through market places, through other mean through Amazon, and and then we're going to find ourselves much like ceios found themselves about five ten years ago, looking around thinking well, what's my rent. Now the good news is we see that. But CEIOS, I think, got caught off guard because they were managing big teams, doing data centers and all this, and then the the cloud came and like pretty much took them out of a job. And so I think procurements timeline got compressed really quickly and it became like there's two paths. Go do all this strategic board level objective stuff or fade into the sunset. I don't think there's much in between. That's a fast I have to say. That is a fascinating thought and it sounds like how do you view the last fees through the pandemic? Did it excelerate pecurement to that? Essentially, that folk in the road where you are the but becomes strategic or you risk disintegration. Is that what we think happened in the last few years? But yeah, it's exactly what happened, and it's not all because the pandemic. Like some of this stuff, like the digital transformation, was well under way, but the pandemic really put our much bigger focus on risk and the impending climate catastrophe seems to have taken hold over the last year or two and certainly the social consciousness after George Lloyd murder and the black lives matter movement really galvanized, certainly here in North America, a a real push tool. We can't be deleterious to the communities that we operate and and so all those things have coalesced and most of them touch procurement. They think about a any organization. If you're going to decide that you're going to go green, well, that's good, but it's going to take you years to change your products. Now you might be able to accelerate your some of the packaging and some of these other things through procurement by bringing in suppliers with green packaging or green ways of operating. That's good, but the other thing is is the other way to move the needles, say on sustainability, is to get your suppliers to be green and to influence their suppliers to be Green. So all of a sudden some of these objectives become...

...very tangible to procurement. Procurement can influence that in a way that other functions. Hr can't do that. It can't do that. And so we sit at this, you know, sort of unique intersection. Say, I told you I'm really get really excited about procurement. But the other pieces, you flip it around. The greatest risks to every enterprise come through the third parties. So and that's typically not looked after by the IT group. So who is looking after the third parties? Than the risk to the organization through third parties should be procurement not really happening that much. Is it fanticizing all the ways that you see the most significant when you're at those cross when humans at those cross roads, into siding which way it's going to go. How important is headpoint? Is a SG and procurements, ability to to own and really deliver on a SG initiatives of an organization, because it just sounds like to me that that is a huge part of it, something that I can own and really make a difference, which is to the at the heart of what is, you know, a top party for corporations worldwide now. Is that if you want to pick one strategy would it, would it be absolutely owning a nailing a SG in the course whatever in the next ten years, or is it is that two narrow approach? I think it has to be. Well, and I think this gets back to this, this discussion we've had now a couple times. Is it like are the reason we have so many supply chain disruptions is because our entire supply chains have been built out over twenty years to be just stretched out to maximize cost efficiency at all at all costs, and or they don't know not like and expects of everything else yet exactly. And so then we've created very brittle supply ting design and so the like the wind blowing knocks over. You know, I do creates a disruption. A labor strike in one town can send shock waves. A ship getting stuck in the SEO as canal can send a shock wave, and that's because we done a really bad job designing and that's so I think that. I don't think you can just go to one thing. That's the mistake. So so now we're, course correcting away from costs and we're going to do risk and ESD and all the other things, but I think we have to not over index on any one thing, because that the flexibility and agility we need is the important piece, because the moment you go all in on ESG and and I think we should do a lot of Mesg, is the moment there's an opportunity cost for risk. So then all of a sudden, what happens? We're going to get some, you know, massive disruption coming through our third parties, and so we're going to be scrambling and and my goal, I look towards the future, to design for the next generation, because we're we're decades into like these decisions that are we're dealing with today, we're made decades ago. So we need to start designing for the next generation. So what is what's top of mind for you when you think about the future of procurement and what and what procument does need to be? Design it? What? What? What? What's taking up most of your time? And Yeah, tell me about it. was excepting. That was covered anyway. Yeah, I mean is championing these changes because, and really I will say a that...

...procurement leaders as a whole have not been at the level of their other counterparts in the leadership teams. And I think, I don't think that's that's not news, and I'm not the first person to say that, but I think if you're not willing to take the leap and really own your own destiny, and so in my current book I did a case study and British Telecom and the CPO. They're firmly has made. You know, he's owning his destiny and he's sort of this next generation of cpos and or lend the candy it Jane J, who wrote the forward to my book. He knows he you know he is very much a visionary and and and really sees this Samet See's the same thing in the opportunity for procurement to make that difference. Those that's that's what I'm working on, is to build more and inspire more people like like Cyril at bet and and Lanta Jane J to really say look, now is our time. There's no better time to be in procurement, because if not now, when? Because we just had a crisis that brought procurement to the forefront. Like, if we can't take this momentum and run with it, we might as well just pack it up and call it a day. Yep, I love that. Always, I love to wrap up with some of my favorite questions. What's the hottest thing you've ever done postly will professionally, that you've prepaid to share with us on the show? That the well, two things. The obvious one my PhD. That nearly because I was working full time and pursuing my PhD and not not a recommended but really really killed. You not recommend it at all. But then all you know. The other one that I'm very proud of is coming out, and that was really hard and very scary for a company at the time that was not terribly diverse, a firm and management consulting firm was totally unclear and and I've been at Krni for twenty two years, so I've witnessed some bad behavior over the years and at which was true, and maybe it's still true at other places. But it was scary to come out and so doing that it's probably been so I'm very open about my transition and my my journey so that it paves the way for other people, because I had no role models and so it was doubly scary. And now can I ask you, louays, do you get reach outs from others and people do say do look at you as a role model and what a found it fantastic outcome if that's the case. Yeah, and and yes, so I do get that, but I and then and I don't. Actually, it's not so much that I want the like people to tell me that. I just you know, even if they never tell me, I just know that, being out and open, that I can be visible representation. And sometimes, because I'll do interviews or, you know, our recruiting, I can tell that I get on a zoom call like the tenor changes when people see me as a visible representation of diversity, the conversation just becomes very natural, very fun, very disarming and and so to me that's the perfect example. I don't I mean I have a big...

...ego and getting adulations is great, but but I also just knowing to be a representative of Corney in that way actually makes me happy. And what a I mean, what a wonderful feeling to be able to walk into a room or get onto a zoom and suddenly the tone changes for the better. Yeah, yeah, people, really, I mean that, I have to say lays to me that feels like a super power. Okay, and and congrets to you for having that. I have to say you you're a natural anyway first time we met. You know that. As for Changing Advisory Board in person here, you do change the atmosphere in a room absolutely for the better. So double down on that super power, because it's really important that. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, and it's not to say it's easy. I mean it's scary and oftentimes, especially when I do public speaking, and I do a lot of public speaking, you know, it's exhausting, but it also is important and and and it's important for people to see that. It's like it's easy to it's sort of like esg right, you know, like the sustainability we've been talking about. It's easy to put it on a slide say carney's diverse and Carney's this and carney's that, or whoever is this and whoever's that. But it's a lot different when you walk in that room or you know. Yeah, I mean, it just it becomes when you become that that bullet point on the slide, the whole thing changes. Fantastic. Last question. Anything that keeps you up at night now the way? A lot of things. A poper the next book. Yeah, well, the impending collapse of democracy. The should be laughing. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, the the the the likelihood that the war in Ukraine will spiral out of control. As you if you don't know, my PhDs in history and I study or military history specifically. So if you study World War One. You know how these how wars can spiral out of control, because wars are not supply chain disruption. Wars are wars, and yet supply chains get disrupted and it irritates me when people talk about this as the next disruption. It's not a disruption like these. Wars cannot be controlled and they spiral out of control. And and so if you study, I spent many, much of the time, not much of the time, but during the pandemic, a lot of time studying and you know, especially World War One, you can start to see just how quickly flash points can escalate. So that really does keep me up at night. But but also, I will say this that I think anybody that does risk management right now should not be sleeping at night like you should go to bed with visible anxiety if you're doing your job right. And I go to bed with my clients anxiety on my mind because, on their behalf, I'm always thinking about this stuff and because the deeper you sort of peel the onion back, the more you realize just how insecure our third parties are, which means most of our enterprises and both of our physical infrastructure for that matter, is at risk. And so, like I go to bed with these really big, complicated problems on my mind because, like, I want to certainly contribute to the solution and certainly when I think about the war and what's happening in Ukraine. It's funny. We have history and but history is just a culmination of moments, and right now...

...we're in a particular moment. It's the culmination of the previous, let's say to a couple of a couple of months, and each moment just for me, just adds to the risk of getting out of control. And when you look at history, you don't actually get that and you just say, well, that was a different circumstance and it was a massive world war, but it all, it was. For me, he's a culmination of moments and that's what's happening right now and, like you, that's absolutely what keeps me up at night, because I don't know what tomorrow's moments going to bring and how it's going to exacerbate the culmination of the all the moments have been lead leading up to today, and that that's how things well and yeah, well, you're sorry. Yeah, and and they can also leave things undone, arguably like and not not to get turn this into a history lecture, but the with the beginning of World War One, there are four empires, the Austro and Garian Emperor, the Russian Empire, the German Empire and the Ottoman Empire. Think about all of those are gone at the end of nineteen eight or at the end of the war in one, Eightheen and eighteen, and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire arguably is still not settled a hundred plus years later. The Russian empire, like these still being settled. You know, in the Russian Ukraine war like there are like these. So the problem is it's not the hostility cease but like the implications go on for centuries and I think that's that's that's why I also say that wars are different because, like, we should be worried about this, because there's not an easy off ramp and just stopping the bombing actually is when the hard work starts. Is it saying it's been an absolute on that somber note, it has, but it has been an absolute pleasure speaking to I've had an absolute class. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm sure the audience is gonna Absolutely love this episode. Well, thank you for having me. I was a pleasure to be here. Fantastic go by for that. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in to the show. The more please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you will. Someone you know would make a great guest on the show. Please connect with me, Jim, the host of the show, via email Jim at pursuit pegr Sui tcom. We'd love to hear from you a.

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