Innovative Legal Leadership
Innovative Legal Leadership

Episode 67 · 3 months ago

Melio: Jonathan Polk - Get the Alligators Closest to the Boat

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

General counsel shouldn’t be seen as an obstacle to the success of the company; and yet, they are often seen as the unnecessary evil when reminding the team about compliance.

In this episode, we speak with Jonathan Polk, General Counsel and Chief Compliance Officer at Melio, to learn about his mission to find balance in legal while generating consensus around the things that help a company grow.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Balancing compliance with culture
  • Building trust with the team and consumers
  • Walking the tightrope of compliance triage

Welcome to innovative legal leadership, the podcast, where you'll hear from the world's most innovative general counsel and their leadership teams for their insights into the running of a fortune five hundred in house legal department, the challenges, the winds, the roadblocks, the journey to date and, most importantly, what lies ahead. Let's get into the show. Hello listeners. In today's episode I'm speaking with Jonathan Polk. Jonathan is currently the general counsel in Chief Compliance Officer at Malo and he's been in that position for just over a year. Johnson is a bit of a veteran. He spent most of his career both at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York for twenty years, and seven years also at American Express. It's a fantastic story. Lots of things that we talked about in Jonathan's own Personal Ernie and professional journey, including balancing compliance with culture, building trust with the team and consumers and walking the type rope. I like this, the type rope of compliance triageum and Jonathan talks a little bit about moving to the world of startup, having been in a large enterprise and big government too. So it's a fascinating discussion as always. So, in the usual fashion, sit back, chillas and enjoy the episode. Jonathan Polk, now you've let me call you JP. Welcome to the PODCAST. It's fantastic to have you on board. I can't wait to have our discussion. Great to be here, Jim. Now, Jonathan, I don't know if you've listened before, but if you haven't, I usually start off with a question that goes something like this. Jonathan POLP JP, you weren't always the general counsel of Melio. You had a life before. They tell us something about the JP story. Why don't you start off with what got you into law in the first place, interested and then, once we move away from that, we'll talk about the early stages of your career and we'll take it from there. Absolutely so, Jim, I would say the things that attracted me to law were my impression of what was required to do the job. It was a lot about logic, about communication and, importantly, about providing advice and counsel. I found that very attractive and making that kind of assessment as a kind of a youngster, a teenager, you're you might have been eighteen or nine in or twenty? Is that? What's the attraction? It wasn't the kind of courtroom, courtroom drama that we were used to at that time, the l a laws of the world. My father was a lawyer, right, so I actually was for a long time reluctant to go into the law precisely because I knew that l a law was not a realistic depiction. Is that right? It is. Did he say? Did he say things like JP, let's say to say things like hey, JP, you know that show you're watching? That's not really like that. Did he actually make that clear to you? And first of all, he would call me Johnny, but but you can definitely call me j but he uh. I think the way I got this impression wasn't so much by what he said by what he did. Uh, and I saw that it was a lot about digging into the books, being prepared, and it wasn't so much about wearing glamorous suits and gliding in and out of meetings. Typically not so, J P, tell us a little bit about the early part of your career. Um, tell us about that and probably some pivotal moments that that you now look...

...back. Um, you regard those payot a little cross drows to talk a little bit about that. Sure, sure, so I was very fortunate to have a close personal relationship with one of my professors at law school and he had a former student at the New York Fed and I got introduced to her and that resulted in me going to the Fed. Uh and and introduced me, in a way I hadn't previously thought about it, to the idea of Uh really supporting the mission of the organization you're you're working for, and so I I really fell in love with the idea of working at the New York Fed, where it was very much working in the public interest. Wasn't so much, in the first instance, for me, an attraction to finance, it was an attraction to doing what I thought of as public service and the law. So that that's the sort of first kind of thought I have about my entry into professional practice and how I went about that decision. And I'm very lucky to say, Jim, that that really paid off for me. The the experience I had there was extraordinary and and it brings me to the answer to your sort of part B of your question about pivotal moments during the financial crisis in two thousand and eight, I was privileged to work on the monitoring team that supported the feds investment in a, i. g. The large insurance company that was at risk of failing, and that was a pivotal moment for me. It actually made me feel like I could take on unfamiliar challenges and figure out how to navigate in a way that I hadn't previously. Fully felt that level of confidence. And it's usually those experiences, isn't it? JP those that we haven't had before, those that seem outside of our capability, they are the ones that teach us the most, that stretches the most and actually teach us that with kind of with dedication, commitment and are willingness to be open Um and learning those opportunities there. That's where the growth is and that's where the reel for me, the real satisfaction and learning comes in and the kind of empowering bit to the not quite that I can do anything, but the really being open to the open to the next challenge and recognizing how to how to attack that next challenges. That does that resonate with you? It resonates deeply with me, Jim. As a matter of fact, prior to the time that I joined the A G monitoring team. There were people in the bank that we called the Fab in those days of the bank. I was being asked if I'd be interested in Lee eating the supervisory team that oversaw city group globally, and my immediate reaction was always how on earth do you think I could ever do that? And I didn't have really the comfort level. Uh. And then, as a result of the work that I did in the crisis, H I felt like that's a challenge I could tackle and I did actually take that job and it was another growth opportunity for me, another exercise in operating out of my comfort zone that had all the benefits you just mentioned. Yeah, and so tell me how what's the impact that those kind of experiences have had on the way that, let's say, the way you manage paper, your teams Um the guidance that you try and provide? To talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think. I think there's nothing like having to rely on other people's expertise ease to...

...grow your skills as a leader. So it's one thing when you're working in an area where you sort of came directly up through the ranks and the people that you're talking to are doing what you used to do. You have a certain kind of point of view and maybe an approach. If you're talking to someone who actually has an unfamiliar set of skills and expertise, uh, you have a different kind of conversation. You have to adapt and you have to learn how to leverage that expertise apply your complementary abilities, whether it's judgment or contextual understanding or whatever. But it's a different relationship and it's a growth relationship and one that I actually enjoy very much and continue to rely on to this day, and I I actually think that is that's such a huge part of successful leadership because typically now it depends the environment. So, for example, I can say if you're A, let's say, your partner at a law firm and you isn't to the head of your practice area, the likelihood is that is that you probably know as much about that practice area as anyone else. So the people you're supervising, you're supervising with an incredible insight into that area. Now that's one kind of leadership. But then, let's say moving in house and then taking on a number of functions that, whether it's legal compliance and relate that are the related or not so related functions. I think being able to then, exactly what you've said, be able to become a leader in an area where you are not a specialist and when you are not the subject matter or the domain expert. I think learning that skill set opens up enormous opportunities and certainly a number of the GCS that I've spoken to here, that's the feedback I get. It was because they were open to being able to I think delivered the most success with them Um in that careers. It certainly exponentially multiplies your impact. So being able to leverage expertise and cultivate talent in areas other than your own Um makes you able to contribute in ways you wouldn't otherwise be able to and and for me at least, it is a source of great uh enjoyment and pride and brings me to the office every day looking forward to what I have to do. And and Jim, I will tell you, and it is absolutely true, that with very few exceptions throughout my career I have felt really excited about my role in my responsibilities and uh and have, I can honestly say I've had the the good fortune to work for great organizations and to have great jobs. I expect, having been the been fishery Tipe, of that and having saying how important that is to your own personal development, satisfaction well being, Um, that presumably you try to emulate that for the tame around you further for the paper that you work with, and you use that as part of the inspiration. If I got I got that right. You absolutely do, and I have opinions on how to go about doing that. I think that when you're dealing with a team, you have to make sure that you are providing them with an environment in which they can succeed that and and where they see their personal growth and development coming happening as a result of the work you give them and the role that they're playing. Um and, and I always say this to my colleagues, you know, there aren't enough pizza parties or ice cream socials in the world to replace a strong sense that you're engaged in something that's providing value to the...

...organization and that you're growing and benefiting from it at the same time. And that, to me, is the strongest possible formula for engagement and high morale. Yeah, it's funny and people have heard me says time and time again. I'm going to say it again because it's it's because I think it just it's easier to say and it's incredibly impactful. But people, ultimately, we're all pretty simple. What we want is we want to be heard, to be respected, a voice that that that is respected, and we want to feel like we're making a contribution to where we're working and that what we do actually matters. There is nothing worse than waking up and saying it doesn't matter what I do today, it's not going to make a difference. That is a terrible position to be in. So if we can all provide employees, team members with those few things and environment which is safe, where their voices heard and respected, where they feel like they're making a contribution and also, what you've said, where they're learning, they're actually growing. Okay, my next question. Um, JP. Twenty years, I think, is the time that you spent at the Federal Reserve Um, and then I think the next move was to American expressive. I got that right. Just compare and contrast for me a couple of the key, I suppose, the key learning differences for you between the two. What was it, let's say, that American Express provided you in your own learning journey, in your growth, that that's you know, that was supplemental to what you had achieved and learned at the Federal Reserve. Yeah, sure. So. There are a couple of things I point to right off the bat. The first is that American Express is a for profit organization. The Federal Reserve is not, and won't come as a surprise to you that that drives a dynamic that is different in those two places, uh, and that materializes in lots of ways. The management of costs, uh, to for one thing, but not only that. The second thing is that American Express, probably as much as any company in the country, puts a premium on leadership and the cultivation of talent and has, in my opinion at least, elevated that to an art. Uh. And I learned a tremendous amount about that through working with incredibly talented leaders and also through being expected to provide a level of leaders ship, uh, that I hadn't previously been asked to provide, and it was actually part of my assessment, the performance of my assessment, in a way that it wasn't the fetch uh, and it's all very organized, uh, and there's lots of support and resources to to do that, which makes it a focus in a way it hadn't previously been for me, and I absolutely embraced that and enjoyed it and benefited tremendously from it. Yeah, Um, and any specific can you are there any specific examples, JP, as to the kind of the strategies that American Express adopted at the time, which was new to you, but really made a difference in the development of those leadership skills. So so one is what I alluded to vaguely a moment ago, that leadership and cultural...

...behaviors are methodically measured and reflected in performance evaluations and, as a result, compensation. Point number one. So that's just people perform to the metrics that are used to determine their compensation, and so that's really you know, the incentives were in the right places. The second thing I point out, Jim, is the highly evolved mechanisms that were used to identify and nurture talent, and there was a process that was used, and I imagine is still used today, to identify what people are interested in and make sure there is a close alignment between those interests and the assignments that they get and they're given a path forward. Keep doing this. It's relevant because we hope you'll be able to do one of these few things in a year or two. It gives context, it gives reason and it makes each person, as you said a few minutes ago, in a slightly different context, makes them feel seen and understood for who they are, that there's a plan for them and that the time they're spending is worthwhile, and I think, particularly for a large organization, that's critical. AMEX did it, I think, extremely well and I learned a lot from that. Yeah, and that the kate anything. But we haven't spoken about in terms of the K takeaways for you that you are now implementing with your team, because I want to. There's a couple of things I want to do. I want to move out to Melio soon. But before we do that, anything specific that you've now kind of adopted and applied to your own team that you learned from from the days at am x? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, uh, really it boils down to some behaviors that I I adopted their um where I found the most important thing for me to do was to feature the work of the people entrusted to my care and that's the way I think about the people that are in my reporting line, and to make sure that they are known in the organization, to make sure that when we're discussing work that they did, they are the ones that are doing the speaking Um and that's something I've I've used consistently through my time at Amex and since uh, I guess I would point to that, Jim. Yeah, and how important is that too? I wish it's one of those things I wish I'd learned a little bit earlier how important it is to have the voices, not your own voice, actually the voices of those around you, those that you have um supported, enabled. It took me a while to learn that, not even in the leadership position, even as a part of a team. You know, sometimes we're a bit younger in our career, we feel like we need to jostle for position and we feel like, Um, we need we need to stand out in a sense. You know, that's just part of the that the ambition and the competitive spirit that that number of have. But I think if I had doubled down more on lifting others around me and having their voices heard. I think the long in the long run, Um, they would have been better off, I would have been better off. And just that one. That one came to me a little bit later, hopefully not too late, but a little bit later in the development of my career. I think it. It became really clear to me when I arrived at Amex because it was...

...it was just understood your ultimate value to the organization is not the work you do yourself, it's the work you do allowing other people to make big contributions. There's always so many hours in the day, there's only so much any one person can do. But if you have a team of ten direct reports, each of them has large teams reporting to them. Collectively they'll make a giant impact and that's that's not just ethical, though I think it is. It has the benefit of being ethical that you cultivate talent and it's a nice thing. It's also just makes sense from a making business sense absolutely Um. So I think you had about seven years at Amex and more recently, I think only in the last twelve months or so, you've moved over to company called Melio. Tell us a little bit about Melio, what it does. Your current role and why you made the move Um and then I'll jump into a few more questions. There excellent three parts to the question. What does Melio Douh? Milio does something wonderful. Melio helps mostly, but not exclusively, small businesses, manage their finances, pay their bills, pay their suppliers. It creates an easy way for business people that don't want to spend a lot of their time managing their finances because they have a bakery, they have a chocolate shop, they do they have a passion for what they do, their important parts of their community, but they don't want to spend a lot of time paying bills. Melio makes that easier. That's not the whole story, but it's at the core of our being. What I do for Melio is I am the general counsel in chief compliance officer, and so I have the privilege of serving the team of people that serve our clients, and that's the way I look at it. Uh. It's all about service, collectively as a company and individually in my role, and so familiar to you what a General Council does and what a chief compliance officer does. Give me a sense, give me a sense of the size of the company. Now, the size of the ottamed just so I've got a Um and if you can disclose broad revenue um just to the audience gets a bit of a sensity center, you can disclose a bit of a bit of a sense of the size of the organization. So the founders are located in Israel, in Tel Aviv. Our headquarters is in the US. We are market is the US. We have offices in New York and Denver. We have a total of just less than six hundred people. We are a dynamic company growing incredibly quickly processing, now, to give you an idea on the financial side, in the order of two billion dollars a month in payments. Tell me what caused the move? There you are, you've you've had twenties at the Fed Reserve. You've had you've had seven. Also it I max you. You know you could. It's pick and choose what you want your next career move to be, J P, and you've effectively chosen a startup um in the FINTECH services space. Give us a little bit about the why. So the why begins with an interest in building something uh and to really have an opportunity to be part of the core team that creates a great organization. That had tremendous appeal for me. And then, well, which one? Why Melio? Really three things. The first one is the mission of veras covered that with you. I'm a mission oriented person. I love MILIO's mission. I was attracted to it. The second thing is h that I perceived Melio. I saw Melio as an organization that was truly looking to do the right thing. I...

...wasn't going to be coming in as the only person in the room that wanted to be compliant, that wanted to do things the right way. Um, I was satisfied in the discussions we had leading up to my decision to join that the intentions were in the right place and I'm pleased to say that what I've learned in the fourteen or fifteen months since I've arrived is that that that was right. That is the way it's working and I'm delighted and feel very fortunate. And then the top reason, honestly, is the people. And Jim, you know like I'm sure this is true for you, but I can certainly say for me I have never been happy in any role when I didn't enjoy working with the people that I deal with every day and I have to say, uh, I am forming relationships with the people here uh that are a source of real joy. I just enjoy spending time with them, I enjoy working with them, I care about them, uh, and and I feel like I'm part of a community that is a very caring and nurturing community and that means the world to me. Fantastic net now, JP, I expect there are a number of GCS out there listening to this Um, and they're there perhaps, let's say, in organizations that have been around a little bit longer, where the path is perhaps a little bit more trodden, well trodden Um, and the opportunities in the FINTECH space there. Let's face it, it's an exploding space. So tell me about what is the advice that you would give to a g C or someone looking to move into the G C position of essentially into the FINTECH space early where you're still going to call you a startup orbit, you've got six hundred employees, Um. What are some of the advice that you'd give? What is some of the things that you've learned in the first fourteen or so monthly time there that you didn't know that but that's been really or the perhaps you wish you'd known. Yeah, UM, multidimensional question. Try to to navigate. You tell me if I if I hit the things. That's right. I should have told you to take a notepad and a pen and write it all down, because sometimes I do go on a little bit too much, JP, but not at all. Actually, I'm enjoying it. To him. It's great, and just keep me honest here if I'm not getting good thing. But but like that, I think the first thing is to decide how early. Like early stage companies are actually a diverse group, right, and I make an analogy to uh sort of human development. So there's there's the toddler, there's the teenager, there's the young adult, there's the fully formed organization that's been in order. I've been around long. Maybe public has a lot of infrastructure. So a person looking at this space should probably calibrate how early in the development cycle they want to get involved. Yeah, I'd probably add to that. I'd probably add to that really the UM embryonic stage to where you haven't actually yet found perhaps product market fit. The funding is not entirely so survival is a question, Um, and you know, taking on that survival resc I think we probably had that as as one of the stages too. Excellent, excellent addition and I en course it. But but there are sort of there are sort of jobs to be done that vary depending on stage of development. And I say you know, for any relatively early stage company, things are not so settled that you can that you can sort of lean back and and...

...sort of thinking in grand terms, you're pretty much always dealing with the alligator closest to the boat. So you know, you kind of if you're if you're at a very early stage company, you're maybe thinking about more fundamental issues than some company that's been around for two or three years. They maybe have some beginnings but need embellishment and so on. And you get to a point where you're in the business of refining. So good for people looking at the space to think do I want to refine? Do I want to create the first strokes or where in between on that spectrum? That's one thing. The other thing that I'd say uh, and actually I got good advice as I was looking at the market and thinking about what I wanted to do. Someone once told me, at least for me, you probably don't want to be the first sensible person they've ever spoken to. So, you know, you don't want to be the only person in the room who's saying, look, you know, let's take into account risk. And people are saying, you know, we didn't get to the start up world to to think about constraints. We challenge reality, we don't accept reality, and and there's a balance to be had there. You do want to have a mentality of not accepting everything has to be the way it is today, otherwise there'd be no startups. On the other hand, you don't want to have such a hostility, for example in my world, the regulatory environment, that you disregard it. So there's another sort of nuanced place for balance. Does that make sense to him? Yeah, and make perfect sense actually, and we could talk about this, let me tell you. J people can talk about this for ours, having done my own startup in two thousands sixteen and gone through some of those phases, and so I absolutely Um what you say absolutely resonates and and often those those phases are reflected, I often call them in just different levels of chaos, and it's often different level. It is messy, it is hard, it is chaotic, as you grow and as you become you know, you get the systems and the structures and the infrastructure in place, some of the chaos becomes a little more ordered, but it's typically not for the faint hearted and it's typically not for the everything, everything in its place type of kind of personality. That's that's what I'd say. But I do like, I really do like type the way you have identified. Really understanding what phase Um as the company actually in Um, and you know how early. Is it a toddler, is it a child? Is it a teenager? In my terms, what's the level of chaos Um that you're experiencing and does that actually suit what you're looking to do? How you will looking to contribute and and sometimes the risk appetite you as a day say, I want to take on board. Yeah, I will add one more thing, Jim, if if it's helpful, um important for someone coming in at a general council level to make a judgment about the rhythms and ways decisions are made, because you're joining in most instances a team that is either larger or smaller. But in earlier stage companies built around one or more founders who have a known zone of comfort for making decisions. And so one of the things that I think you have to assess from the beginning is, am I going to be relevant and part of that team, and am I going to be able to become...

...a part of the group that decides and charts the course for things? And lawyers, for better or worse, are sometimes included in that more or less, and no matter what is said in in the discussions, you have to earn your way into that role, but you at least want them to have that hope and expectation that you can sort of be brought into the fold if if that makes sense. And so that's just another factor I would say ought to be top of mind for anyone talking to a company like this and JP, I like the way you put that. Really kind of understanding the zone of comfort, I think, is the way you put it. If you found is because any startup company is driven by and large, certainly the early day is it's found a driven found to lead Um and you want to be relevant. We all want to be as relevant we could possibly be in whatever position we take. So as a new G C, you want to be as relevant and presumably you've made that move and anyone thinking about that move it is doing so because they want to be more than, let's say, a technical black letter lawyer. They want to be relevant in the making and growing of the business, the creation of something that right now doesn't exist. M Yeah, so I do like the way you put that. I think that's really that that's resonated with me. Understanding is a zone of comfort and making sure that you can work within that zone of comfort of the founding team. Um, identify for me what what is the what are the two or three most significant challenges that you have faced that you're willing to share, Um, in the first twelve months or so, Um, and then so that's the first question when asked. And then, looking into the future, what do you think the challenges are going to obey the top of mind? Challenges Again, to the extent that you're willing to share again, evade for you, Amelia. Sure, so. So I would say to you that the first challenge is to figure out what's a productive way to spend your time, to identify the alligators closest to the boat, so to prioritize in an environment gim where, as you well know, you could do a thousand things. You have to decide which five are really the highest value, and I think that's that's a doable thing. I enjoy doing it personally. I think that's the value you bring as a general counsel Um. But that was job number one, like what am I going to focus on first and UH and, and I think people appreciated that that I didn't try and run in all directions at the same time. The second thing, I think, is to do what I was talking about a minute ago, sort of a hybrid. Get involved in the right way with people, understand how they operate, bring value and, uh manage expectations effectively. So it's sort of a combination of things number two, so that people feel like you're on the right point. You're doing things they understand will bring the company value and they're willing to fund those things, either in terms of staff or in terms of outside council or other resources. Uh and, and you bring everyone along and make them feel like this is really great, because you want to, I think, right up front, make people feel glad that you've arrived, because every body looks at the...

...arrival as a lawyer as something and if you're a lawyer and a compliance officer, is kind of a double way, like, oh my goodness, is this Guy gonna just say we can't do anything anymore, we have to stop, or are they going to help us? So that would be the third thing. Really making sure of the challenges, to make sure, as I think we are focused on here and and aligned, that legal and compliance is an engine for growth, not a head wind that has to be overcome or a necessary evil. It should be a power that we have to compete successfully, to earn and maintain our customers trust, all of the things that here at Melio we are very strongly aligned our key to our success, and so I thinking in the future. I take it then I prioritizing what you're going to do and how you're going to focus on the future. It's it's presumably that's the touchstone. How do I become, or my department become an engine or an accelerant of growth? Again, I like that language. We don't have to. There aren't too many opportunities for the legal team in the legal department to really be able to make any impact on growth. A lot of them are still, unfortunately, seen as a cost center Um and as as a necessary evil. But if you can work out how your department can become an accelerant, an enabler of growth, especially in the start, well, in any company, but especially in an earlier stage company. That's got to be a superpower. I think it's it's actually, Jim, I would respectfully pushed back a little bit. I think it is inherent in the role. I think that by facilitating commercial engagements or an engine for growth, by providing customer experiences that can achieve security without introducing friction that frustrates the customer's experience. Um, you're an engine for growth. I think supporting the development of a culture that is engaged and enthusiastic about the mission, which everyone on the leadership team has that responsibility not specific to General Council. You're an engine for growth. And that's just the beginning of the list, Jim. I think the question is how you think about it and how you brand it and how you generate consensus around the things that are worth doing. And, to be honest, in order to do that you have to be willing to say that's an exercise in formality. We don't need for now like that gains credibility. But here's something we knew do need to do, uh, and and making those kinds of of distinctions will will, I think, over time, build the consensus and confidence, uh, necessary to make people feel like they are helpful, because we don't have any time or resources to do things that aren't, in the end of the day, further in our mission to keep our customers, small businesses, in business. Yeah, JP, I'm going to wrap up with some of my favorite questions. The first one, which you might have heard before, advice that you would give to your twenty five year old self. So you know, earlier in my career I found myself being interested in the politics of the office, the politics of the organization, uh, and in the Fed that there's a political over tone anyway. Uh, really,...

...uh, while it's interesting and recreational, it's a distraction and I would tell my year old self stick to your knitting, do your job and let the leadership sort out whatever it is that needs to be sorted out. Yeah, yeah, it's typically not time well spent. It's not energy well spent either, is it. Um, the however you describe at the office politics, the maneuvering, the yeah, I think. Um, I think we've all probably suffered a little from wasting a little too much time on on on the politics that don't actually make a difference. Um. Final question, Jp what what keeps you up at night now? So I'm very happy to see Jim I sleep well. I love that. That's a super power, let me tell you. As anyone's lawyer, I would tell them make sure to get your sleep. Maybe that's not, strictly speaking, legal advice, but I think it's good advice just the same. But I think, uh, you know, always thinking about the alligators closest to the boat, always thinking about making sure that we can solve the problems at hand. Those are the things that I wake up in the morning thinking about. I'm pleased to say we're not in a situation now where I'm being woken up at night, but usually in the morning gym, because Israel is seven hours ahead of us. Every day when I wake up there is a load of emails that have arrived while I was sleeping, so I opened those up. I'm I'm always like, what's going to be the next thing today? Is there something I wasn't whereof? Where's that thing that I was trying to get done yesterday? So it's really about current events. I don't have big overarching worries. I think we're on the right path and I'm optimist stick that we're going to be very successful and continue on the pattern of growth that we've enjoyed up until now. The final question, JP, and I haven't asked this one before, but I'm going to ask it because of just some personal curiosity. How many seconds between the time you wake up and the time you check your emails? Less than sixty, I've got to tell you. My answer is the same. It's an awful, awful habit. I'm trying to break it, but I'm hopeless and I can't. And my answer is also less than sixty JP. On that note, it's been fantastic speaking to you. I've had an absolute blast. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you, Jim. I've enjoyed it as well. Thank you, listeners, for tuning into the show. For more, please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you for someone you know would make a great guest on the show, please connect with me, Jim, the host of the show, via email Jim at pursuit PG R S U I t dot Com. We'd love to hear from you.

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