Innovative Legal Leadership
Innovative Legal Leadership

Episode · 2 weeks ago

Marc Barbeau: Meaningful Careers & the Relationships that Make Them

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We all want meaningful work and to know at the end of the day, our work mattered.

Impacting the next generation by engaging with them and passing the baton to them, while simultaneously figuring out how to evolve to the next step in our careers.

In this episode, we speak with Marc Barbeau, Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer at Air Canada, about lessons he’s learned in 30 plus years of law and why he’s thrilled for this next step at Air Canada.

We discuss:

  • How to look back and learn from challenges in your past
  • The benefits of sponsoring and the difference from mentoring
  • Why personal growth and relationships are important
  • What advice Marc has for up and coming law professionals 

Hear more stories by subscribing to Innovative Legal Leadership on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Innovative Legal Leadership in your favorite podcast player.

Welcome to innovative legal leadership, the podcast, where you'll hear from the world's most innovative General Council and their leadership teams for their insights into the running of a fortune five hundred inhouse legal department, the challenges, the winds, the road blocks, the journey to date and, most importantly, what lies ahead. Let's get into the show. Hello listeners. In today's episode I'm speaking with Mark Barbow Marcus, currently the chief legal officer at Air Canada. It takes us through his career. It's been an absolutely stellar career. His early days he started as an associate at stikement Elliott, and very prestigious law firm in Canada, and he's made his way right through to the to the chair and so the most senior legal position, of the most senior exectual position there at stikemen, and takes us through that journey. Are The various phases in that journey. His learnings. He's been lecturing as an adjunct professor at McGill University since the mid S, tells us why that's important. So his influence amongst amongst law students has are no doubt being long serving and profound. So that's fantastic. And more recently, of course, a couple of years ago, I think, a right in the middle of pandemic, he took on the position are of the chief legal officer at at Air Canada. So it's a fascinating discussion. We talked about a bunch of different topics, important things that mentoring sponsoring, the difference between the two, and we do a bit of a deeper dive too into the future of the legal profession, both from a perspective of being in a law firm, being in house, and and more broadly just being in the legal profession. So it's a it's a fascinating discussion. I'm sure, like all that discussion, but particularly this one, you're going to enjoy it. So, in the usual fashion, sit back, chilacs and enjoy the episode. Mark but bow, welcome to the PODCAST. It's fantastic to have you on board. I'm really looking forward to the show, as I might. Hello, bogeorgem. Well did your of our you for had me. It is morning time. Of course they're mark. Tell us a little bit about the mark but bow story. That's how I like to set the context for these shows. Take us right back, tell us what even got you interested in law? We know you current position. I would have announced this at the beginning of the show, that you're currently the EXECUTI vice president, chief legal officer and Air Canada, but that's pretty recent. That's only since July last year. But take us back to the very beginning. What got marked about interested in law in the first place? Well, thank you for the question. So the so it. I actually studied my my other's than engineer, and so I studied as as one doesn't...

...pure and applied sciences to keep all the options open. Right in due course, and in due course perhaps so, you know, I might have considered engineering, but chemistry got the better of me. Yeah, there's so does a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, although my partner is is a chemical engineer. So some it looped back back into my life late, later in life. But but it definitely got the better of me and at some point in we have something that's it can to junior college here in in Quebec, and it was clear to me I was not going to pursue a career in sciences. And then the question beg the question what you what do? What does one do? And I had no clear path and no clear plan and I simply a friend of mine was going into law. Her brother was in law, I guess, and so she was going to go into the law and I said, well, that sounds like a good idea as I figure out what I want to do in life, and the rest is history. And how about that? Those kind of stories. We hear them time and time again. A friend of a friend or something, oh, or something that's puts you on a path because you're not sure what you're going to do, and then suddenly an entire career exactly. I'm lucky she didn't apply the accounting so that's a rare or maybe maybe that was a calling as well. That who you haven't only know. So yeah, and of course, let's take a bit of a deeper dive. Mark in your career at stakement, Elliott, you were you. You've spent most of your professional career there. You were certainly a partner there since the mid nineties and more recently, I can see you were a chair and executive committee member for the last three years before you joined Air Canada. So I think I mentioned you before we got on to the show. That between us, between you and I, we have more than forty years as law firm partners. That's a long time. So tell us, I'm mean, tell us about that experience, one of the key learnings for you, and because I'm going to love to compare that when we get to then your transition, of course, to Air Canada. But tell us about that part, that very long part of your career. Yeah, yeah, I ended up being your rate. There ended up being a lay for its statement because I joined statement Elliott as a student right and then, and then you know, the progress through the ranks eventually up to an including chair. But I there's a bit of serendipity also in joining stakement it in the first place. So I can if I can kind of take that detour and get yeah, of course question the the in last or school I really enjoyed public law, administrative law, criminal law, public low generally. I ended up actually studying there was a scholarship, but at the law faculty that allowed you to go study in France for a year. So...

I ended up studying in Paris French public law, which even French lawyers, when they would tell them that, would say, why did you do that? But it was actually I was it was it was an interest of mine, public and administive law of public policy and so on and so forth. But what they came back to Montreal. I had to do my bar and bar school and so on, and had thought that perhaps a firm with with an international reach such as it was in the S. it's nowhere near, you know, all the firms are kind of gone global now, but back then it was, it was a different world, and I spoke to one of my professors and he said, well, I are the called it stikemen Elliott, and so would you like to try to see if they have a spot for you? So I ended up with stiken Elliott in that way. So again, you know, no clear design involved, which perhaps is a theme here. Jim, you can leverage through the interview like it can. I tell you, it's a consistent three thing throughout almost all of my guests, and it takes me back to a spoken quite a lot about the stress that that younger people seem to have now about not having in they're really twinkies, their entire Korean mapped out. Oh Yeah, how certainly, when I can, I try to relieve that stress by saying, you know, it's silly, it is kind of I'm totally in the end. Yeah, we're on that that, that's side road, but that's an important one. You're absolutely right in it's one which I do share with with students or young lawyers on occasion, and that is you see, you see the fully formed person in front of you and you and that gives the impression that somehow there was design and there was there was actually and actually what it is? What it is is just a series of choices that are made, seizing opportunities, for sure, great saying by by baseball coach at is, I think it is, which is which is that luck? Luck is the residue of design. So there is, there is some form of basic design, but it's not entirely fully, fully developed, and you have to embrace that because because this world changes, and so you have to embrace the changes it comes in the opportunities that as they come. So that's how I ended up. That said the that's how it to circle back, that's how I ended up at stike men Elliott with a whole lot of interest in public law and administrative law and yet French public law, and yet I ended up in a business law firm and and very interested in securities laws, which of course involve all the public policy markets and so on and so for it. So that was the kind, if you will, the hook, but before long I was just fully engaged in all kinds of really interesting stuff that was happening there and realizing that this was something I'd like to continue to do. So Mark, take me through some of the key lesson was during your time. It's Dyckman. What...

...kind of stands out for you now? Well, thank yeah, so lot over the time that I was there. There's phases right there faces of course, and that's pro that's probably the best way I look at let yeah, break it down in those phases. That's when I look back in my career different that's how I look there. There were chunks and then there seems to be dividing lines. But what between those trunks? Take out the arch, leave a binder from the first trunk and they will work out from there. Yeah, so, so I welcome glad. Well, wrote about the tenzero hours. N I forgetting which one of my yea and yeah, so that that one's outlies and it was our liars. Okay. Well, it was interesting insight which I think he found from some other study and you know, obviously people have been bantering whether that's the right metric. But but it is an interesting metric when I think about the law profession, be for the following reason is that if you if you're in private practice, they put aside. I can't speak to even growing in house because I'm starting to grow in my inhouse world now as a as a fully grown, I hope, lawyer. But if you think about private pro joining private practice, the tenzero hours actually works out quite because how many hours you doing? Okay, and I know, I mean I started when in an era where if you did two tho hours that was a lot of ours. And and now you know there's some lawyers, young lawyers, who are doing much more than that. And I this golfing, this golfing at too thousand. Yeah, to the s kind of yeah, not even the right of a passage. But but if you broke that and if you said, well, they's two thousand, but you know, on the average whatever, you kind of get to a point where you those first five or six years of practice, put it that way, are really important. Five or six years of practice, and you know is it's five, six, seven, eight, whatever it is, and then you and then you lean into potential partnership at some point on the other side of those of those years, whatever the number of years is, but it actually matches that which so when I look back, I think I did a pretty traditional kind of arc of learning which started with just, you know, learning, growing given given being given more responsibility, you know, by the year, being mentored for sure, through that process and and and learning through that process and I was the beneficiary of a lot of mentoring, great mentors, but also of sponsoring, which I think is actually a theme that, you know, applies not just to my own progress but I think if we really look back on our career, certainly if I look back on my career, yes, I was mentored but more importantly, I was sponsored. There were people who put their faith in me and and acted on that and frankly, they took a chance on me. You know, it's they acted without full certainty that they thought, well, we think he's you know, he...

...can do this, let's try it, and who gave me opportunities. And as we think about our young lawyers right now, whether it's inhouse or in private practice, whether in the diversiony space, it's the same thing right. It's not just about mentoring. Its spot. Yeah, it's one of my favorite things. One of my favorite things distinguishing, assume, distinguishing between mentoring and sponsoring, because I think there is a distinction and taking a chance on people. But when you don't have certainty, there's no there's never real certainty. But that is the difference. That is what creates the white space around them and you to be and you enabling them to grow into that white space. That's my favorite thing. Whether whether it there young lawyers, whether there's anyone in your team, the principle applies. You have to spot and take and take chance. I take a chance on people and believe in them more than they believe in themselves. So it is run my absolutely and have their backs if they stumble right at that's also part of it. That's that's more than just mentoring, but yeah, it's for so I was the beneficiary of a lot of that. Just put that that there and so then that. That's the first part of the BINDER, if you well, that's the first binder and and the second bout. The second binder is obviously a partnership and what comes from from that right and the responsibilities that come with that and the you know, once a partner you become an owner and that has, yes, that has certainly advantages, but there's pride in that, but there's also responsibility there too. You feel the responsibility as an owner of the firm. You suddenly look around you and you say, well, I I'm responsible for all the people that are around me to keep them busy in gainful employment and also to to to help them along their own path. So that's that's so building a practice as well, which you know, when you're I was six, seven years out, I didn't have a practice. Again, I was, you know, someone took a chance on me and and said he can do this and became a partner. And so over time you build a practice and frankly, at times you're handed a practice, which is a big part of you know, private law firm life, people trusting you with with clients, Major, small or otherwise. Then that's that's so that's the second binder and that takes other call it, you know, ten years. And along the way of that, none of this is kind of bright line, but along the way of that then you get into obviously, and I think this is common for all of us. At some point you get thrown responsibilities. It starts with small responsibilities, committees and the like, and you grow from there and eventually, as in my case, firm leadership. So that's the and I learned from every one of those phases. Obviously the practice. I...

...learned about being an owner in all of its manifestations and then you learn about managing for learning about leadership, you learn about firm purpose. There's an exercise that we did ten years ago. The at the board that that point I was on the board of stikeman Elliott and the my predecessor's chair, wanted us to do an exercise on not simply, you know, the business, kind of the growing the pie was the expression that was used. You know, how do we know? This is actually just after Richard Suskin that told us all that the lawyers were that at an end. I forget the name of the book, but something like that. So so it's so what, how do we grow the Pie? But also he was very mindful, rightly so, about the fabric of the firm and that's the term that we used and we kind of spoke to most partners about the fabric. Would we believe the fabric of the firm was, which is extraordinary exercise, Jim, because you kind of speak to all your partners and you realize that the people, yes, they are running businesses, they are the other basis is within the law from but they're also very mindful of the fabric and that's what keeps firms together and that's another way to talk about purpose. So that that exercise was extremely insightful for me at least. We're talking about that. So had a couple things. One firsty, I'm thinking it was more like twenty Pero hours, so maybe that's a different story. I think I think it was close to nine years before or made that progression. Secondly, I thought about as does anyone actually know what an our sleeve, a binder? Is Anyone under forty? Actually, no one a sleeve. Wonder. Is that thought I had. You can post a picture the in the show. Do that, Ye, and tell me. Mark The did it take? It took me longer than it should have to recognize how important it was to empower people around you and stop thinking just about me and what I could be doing or should be doing to progress. I'd be interested in your insights there. So what you talked about the importance of sponsoring and trusting people so forth. What was your journey on that? Did you get there very early? Is that something that just progressed for you, orbs that gradually? I'd been so because it, if speaking, friendly, came a little late, came me, a little late. For me, I was too much about me in those early years. Yeah, I think the early years you're you're focused on your own you're focused on your own progress and it takes I think it fairness, it takes time. It's it's not out of you know, negligence or anything like that. Appropriate not the word, but I think it just takes times to realize that, wow, this is not just about me and I was actually the beneficiary of something that I need to replicate. So when that happened exactly,...

...it was certainly infused in all of us that this is something that had to happen. And there's a delicate balance there that that people, anybody, quite naturally struggles with, and that is to the extent that you give room and you allow someone to grow. You know, I'll say below you, but you know with you, it actually, it actually necessarily affects your own kind of relevance and that there's there is a part of your ego that will fight against that. You know, I think, and you have to be very mindful of that and say yes, I will, I will create room for someone else, which which means that someone else will have more room, which means that the call may not come to me, which means that, you know, maybe a meeting can happen without me. And we all want to be relevant, which is actually a very poignant way to put it. That was put to me by a senior partner at one point. You we all want to be relevant and to stay relevant, and so the job of a manager is to ensure that people know they can be relevant in as they work through these different phases, relevant in different ways to to the firm and to and two clients, which also applies, frankly, in house. I actually think applies across any organizations. Leaving you insecurities, it was much yeah, insecurities is about I really had. I think it is. I think ultimately it comes down to insecurities and the profession will be. We are in the Profession Sy we are in the profession where, I mean the archetypical lawyer is one person standing for in front of a judge. And so there's this idea that, yes, it's a group effort, but there's there's one individual, that there's the spokesperson for the firm, for the client, for correct. But and think about the journey to get there was a high you know, being high performing in high school, in College, university, Law School. You know, you had to be typically an individual country, well, Indiv yeah, it had to work very hard and not always, not typically in teams to get to the entry point, let alone through the profession, whether it was law firms or in house. But yeah, I think, and what I always say is the earlier I think in your career profession that you recognize that a skill of empowering others and and and ensuring your ego doesn't it get in the way. Ryan holidays. The EGO is the enemy. It is one of my favorite books and I just read. I read. I would I keep saying I wish it was around in my twenties and that I'd...

...read it in my twent s, but but it's a really fascinating discussion about how how hard it is to put that ego aside and recognize as it is about empowering others and how how, in the long term, have beneficial that can be, honestly, at a personal level. But Anyway, I think it's Roosevelt that said, for you can accomplish anything in life, provided you don't care who gets the credit for it. Yeah, they love that. You can't make a president without some some measure of EGO and self identity. But but it's a great quote and so if we use that as a bit of a foundational for that, that's the founder. What are we looking about? Look, what are we looking at in the future? What does it look like, whether it's law firm side, in house time, the entire profession? Can you give some thoughts about what you think the future looks like? Yeah, and so so, thank yeah, great question. And again this is a quite we certainly you've been, I'm sure, thinking about it for many, many years, and and any firm has been thinking about it. Then there's always there's a always an existential, you know, reflection of firms. We went through it when Mr Suskin published his work and and since then you'l where are we going? How? I think in the end, you know, law firms are a law firms evolve in a way that will seek out where the value add is and and and and probably certainly that was the case. It's like me, Elliott. Identifying where they could add value was was a very key piece of the strategy. And in the business law space, which is not so you can't do the same out of the other spaces, but to know what you are and where you add the value is a key component of the process. And that firm, my former firm, was very focused on business law, not just in the corporate world, with also and Ligation, tax, employment, all these other manifestations of business not but very focused on that segment which which actually begets you know strength because what you have is a concentration of lawyers who are in that same space and therefore the expertise you know is is reinforced in this transmitted from generation to generation, so and so forth. So that was one strategy and I think that probably is here to stay and and well we'll stay in the future. Look the profession this, the scale of the of the service providers, whether their law firms or otherwise, who are going to be in the space, in the space, is certainly something that is going to increase. So how they adapt to that will no longer mean my per you. I'm going to be the...

...recipient to services as opposed to the provider of services. But the sheer scale of whether it's the accounting firms, and you'll have seen there's something about eoey. Even even yesterday I think about spinning off. There are that function. So there's them, but there's others. That's certainly something to watch. And then technology. But Tick Tock, we've been talking about technology for as far as I can remember, even then law school, how technology was going to replace lawyers. Right. So create funny, funny little story. SEGUE my second year and universe. Now my first university, I studied the counting didn't us right in a law got got introduced to a Tjo. Told me, you know what I think you should do? You should learn about computers, gym. I think it's going to be big in the future. So we're talking eighty six now, eighty five, okay, and I thought I looked him. Said I don't think so. No, no, I'll keep doing what I'm doing. So they I have a similar, similar story of calling it we're working temporaries. The world's worst. Call that one. I don't think it'd be a was going to know the way. I actually was toying after law school. They should. I got the SILIC's a California and there's this place. I don't know that it was specifically set a Condo, but it seemed like a far place. Nothing's gonna Happen. Lots of by the I'm telling you my nothing's getting my head. But Hey, you did the right so yeah, there's a parallel. There's a parallel. You somewhere in the world day week. Who? WHO's that? Look, so I was up back on. You were talking about back on take. Yeah, it tacked on, it did lots of lots of talk. There's no doubt in my mind there are ways to use technology, there's no doubt. But the the and in the end you know. But it's one thing to have technology that knows the answers, another to know what question to ask. And and you know, when they come out with that technology, that that will be game changer. Maybe it's already out there. If I just in terms of the future the profession and we see it now, you know, just engaging with people to so that they come into the profession, that they see the purpose of it in a world that is looking for a purpose is really quite important and we talked about the hours. If you're going to if you're in a log in those those amounts of hours, you have to I'm sure there are financial rewards, for sure, no question, and private practice, but you also have to see the other rewards in it and I think that, for for private practice, certainly, but but for the profession generally, is important and there are, you know, non financial rewards and being in this profession. But we have to we have to make sure that that they're highlighted...

...and we talked to earlier about mentoring and sponsorship, key key aspect of I think, what people want now when they want purpose, they want to feel that the growing, that they're learning, the you know, they don't just playfony in French a you know, Max out on that, on that trajectory and and that's going to be an additional challenge, not just for the profession but all this you know, hybrid working environment. How do we mentor sponsor people in that environment through? That's an additional layer of complexity to for us all to I think the purpose, the why, I think certainly I think in the past we've gone a long time without necessarily needing to know the why or the purpose because of being a typically early in the cree sometimes it's about the financial awards, working hard and so were so forth, but I think that increasingly the wine, the purpose is you're presented with earlier and the and I think we're all the better for it when that happens, because it means your energies and your focus is directed and should be directed to the right thing. If you were if you ask the why and the why something that's not important to you, the sooner soon you know that the better, and then you can actually direct yourself and your career and your energies to what actually does, what's meaningful and mark I told about we all want meaningful work. We want to be able to say the end of the day, what I did today actually mattered, it made a difference. There's nothing, I think there's nothing, well, nothing worse than somebody, at the end of that saying it doesn't didn't matter what I did today. What doesn't matter what I'm going to do tomorrow. It won't make a difference in whatever environment your rate, and that's not a position you want to be in. Everybody needs meaningful work and so if I exactly and if I kind of we talked about the future the profession, mostly private practice. But you know, if you kind of shift gears to my to my new role, it couple of observations there. It's extraordinary. I mean I would have known this kind of intuitively or assumed it, but remember, I certainly was my case, that in law school, the first year law school, when you start learning about torts and contracts and everything and then suddenly you're you goin to see torts and contracts everywhere into everyday life, right. You kind of you're walking down the streets and you're saying, well, that's like anything. Yeah, every everything to you is like a hammers as a nail, and so everything is everything gets characterized. But you, you, you your you're introduced to the breadth of law and everyday life right, and which you had not prior to law school, realize because you know there's no need to realize it. But in a company,...

...in I expect, most companies, you you are reacquainted with the fact that law and the law branch touches on so many aspects of not just corporate life but personal life. You know, we were in the BTC area and so we have a passengers, obviously, who who interact with us, and there's all kinds of laws relating to that. There's our activities to regulate the environment and, needless to say, and so law just permeates everywhere and you're reacquainted with that, with that fact of having to work through that and to serve your client in those respects. And there's all kinds of things that I'm effectively in a airline law boutique. There are things that are done here that just don't have any parallel in private and private practice. It would just wouldn't make sense to have them there. You're embedded with your client, you're talking about things that you know are unique to this industry, which is extraordinary, and so and so you you you know, just to give you to exact I mean the pandemic. The pandemic itself raised, yes, the fort sure, kind of major world level issues from from a health point of view, but the implications for a business such as our own, you know, from a Labor's perspective, from a health measure perspective, and working through these, you know in a company like our Canada, with the you know, the input of the law branch, that that that is you know, I don't expect I would have ever had some visibility on that in my private practice. They would have been no opportunity to do that and frankly, the expertise lies within rather than outside of the law branch. Took a little bit about the impact and what you say, the future responsibility, if you like, as as a General Council in the is J space. How's that going to impact, but both in your industry and more broadly, you think, across the profession? Yeah, huge, great question and and coming off of my our high our conversation just now, great question because you know, this is this is both from a social point of view. People are asking about this, rightly so. But the purpose of corporations, the purpose of businesses and how businesses interact with society at large and and it's a responsibility that businesses are taking boards of directors down and down management are taking seriously, you know, and and and being mindful of their of their accountability the responsibility in that space. It's not it has surfaced recently, but you know, in the sense that debate has been there for a while and certain incorporate law or right you you'll remember...

...more than ten years ago, even going back to to the the Delaware takeovers of the s and the s. What is the purpose of a corporation? Is A serilder value and so on and so forth. So through that debate has been percolated in an academic way for a long while, but now it's real because people are asking these questions. More broadly, investors are want to know what we're doing, and certainly certain Air Canada. We we take those things very seriously. At the core of what we do, we and and other airlines, is safety. There's there's no greater value to Air Canada than the safety of passengers, the safety of employees, safety of communities. And if you kind of take threads from that you can understand how safety is a is a driving force throughout right. Safety is a very powerful value to to to build on, and most recently, clearly less I say most recently, but yeah, I'm going to talk to you about climb and action. But this is an industry actually that has had environmental considerations, you know, on its mind from the very get go. The Chicago Convention. This in the these just after the Second World War, Chicago Convention set up I Ko, which is the International Civil Agency Organization, which basically a framework for the for the airline industry. And in that agreement there was an annex dealing with Environ mental matters. And now, I'll grant you it was all about the noise of propellers, but which which was, you know, worked on. You know that there's there was some kind of framework to work on that. But but the idea that the industry was somehow had to address environmental matters. Do they even propellor propeller noise was kind of set in that agreement seventy years ago. And and Corsia, which is the you know, the agreement dealing with carbon in the airline industry is it is part of that same annex in I in the in the Chicagy. What was the Chicago Convention? So all this to say, the industries focused on that. We're focused on that. We've set net zero goals for two thousand and fifty. We've set interim goals between now and two thousand and fifty. We're looking at what we can do with the fleets, the operations, the innovations, the fuel lot to talk about sustainable aviation fuels and then carbonate, carbon reduction. Than renewals, removals, but all of this gym, all of this, you know, is all being driven by technology advancement, by, you know, commercial opportunities, innovation, agreements with partners. There's going to be a lot of partnerships that there the necessary to get to get to those goals. All of that has to we have to contribute to as a low branch, which is really exciting because we're working on stuff that we about, bespoke stuff, novel stuff, you...

...know, agreements that have never been entered into before, and it's coming through the law branch and it's exciting to be part of those initiatives, in those efforts, not just that their Canada, but in the industry. Yeah, and certainly in the hundreds of discussions that that I've had with general counsel. If you think the top, you know, asj's in the top top three priorities with as J D and I gi political now, of course, stability, but it's is absolutely a top of mind issue amongst the entire community. Last question mark, anything that keeps you up at night. Now I think we've touched a bit on it, but this, this whole isolation. Yeah, the Cannadia, the Equachamber, extremism, the lot laws law, Chief Justice Warren the USA. Last floats on the Sea of ethics. Yeah, which is which is that? He was speaking, of course, about the ethics, but there's also it's floats on social fabric. Yeah, it floats on social connectedness. And we find ourselves in the moment and we don't have to look very far, unfortunately, to see that people are disconnected. Yeah, and and that that creates, of course, all kinds of unintended, deeply, deeply troubling consequences. And and that that and the pandemic has this has a potential of it exacerbating that. And so we need to work intentionally to reconnect people, people, places, beliefs, interests so that these people start talking to each other again. Yeah, we couldn't agree with mark. Mark Bubo, it's been fantastic speaking to you. We've had a long discussion but, I've got to say, a really enjoyable discussion. I have a blast of a time. Thank you so much for joining me. Likewise, thank you for inviting me. Fantastic. Bye Bye, bye, bye, Jim. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in to the show. For more, please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you or someone you know would make a great guest on the show, please connect with me, Jim, the host of the show, via email Jim at pursuit pegr suiitcom. We'd love to hear from you.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (63)